08 – Double kisses, double love, double joy!

Welcome to Trusting Children Episode 8.

I’m Aisha, your host, I have 3 young children a 4year old daughter and 2-year-old twins. I used to be an early year’s teacher and now my passion has changed from working with children to working with and supporting parents.

I created this show to guide parents through respectful ways of parenting and uplift their confidence in knowing what to do when things get crazy.

Double-Trouble is probably the most common phrase with regards to twins. If you are a twin parent, I can almost guarantee that at some point someone has said this to you. Yes, while there can be some challenges in having 2 babies, 2 toddlers, 2 teenagers at the same time, none of them outweigh the wonders that come with having 2 incredible human beings growing alongside each other, and we get the VIP front row seats to watching them develop.

2 special guest speakers will be joining me in today’s episode. Ana-Kay Hails and Amorette French who are also both twin parents.

Ana-Kay Hails is from Kingston, Jamaica and now lives in the U.S. with her husband and newly 2yr old twins Jax & Juju. With her twins being premature, she found Montessori a respectful way to guide them as they developed, instead of constantly worrying about milestones. Raising Jamaican gentlemen, Ana-Kay’s Montessori journey is infused with Caribbean culture at its core, and she hopes to inspire both twin moms & the Caribbean massive as well.

Amorette is from the US and has twin girls who are 22 months old. She found Montessori when helping to raise her nephew almost 10 years ago and has been passionate about introducing Montessori into her home since her girls were born. Together with her husband Amorette runs an Etsy shop where they produce Montessori aligned toys and materials. She hopes to spread the knowledge and wisdom of Montessori to as many parents as she can.

Aisha: Welcome ladies. Thank you very, very much for joining me here today and hello.

Ana-Kay: Hi, thank you so much for having us. I’m excited to talk to some fellow twin moms interested in Montessori!

Amorette: Yeah, thank you for having us!

Aisha: I’ll start by asking a question, and I’m going to start with a very positive one. I’m going to ask you, what is the most wonderful thing about having twins? Because I think that a lot of people sometimes feel a bit scared and I certainly have comments like, ‘ooh double trouble!’, ‘double the work’ ‘double…’ ha-ha. ‘Double the mischief!’ But what has been the most wonderful thing for you?

Ana-Kay: Most definitely the fact that they’re growing together. I mean they’ve gone from not noticing each other exist as infants to now becoming best friends. There are times, yeah, When being two with one mum can cause some frustration and you know having to learn how to balance which one to focus on at which point but at the same time, they’re also starting to help each other in so many ways and it’s just magical. I mean they’re realising each other’s strengths without me even knowing that was possible at this age or realising each other’s weaknesses and helping each other in ways that I would but now I don’t really need to cos they have each other. Ha-ha, I don’t know… it’s just so much fun! It’s so much fun watching them play, you know, at first they don’t really play together but now they’re starting to chase each other round the house, they’re starting to build the blocks; one will stack and the other will stack. I mean it’s just so cute! It’s hard to explain, it’s so cute!

Aisha: Thank you. And how about you Amorette?

Amorette: It’s definitely the bond. As difficult as having twins can be the be, the bond that they share together; I always, I jokingly tell my husband all the time that I feel sorry for their future partners, cos I don’t think they’re going to have the same kind of bond with them that they do with each other, ha-ha. Their sister will probably always come first. And I actually think it’s easier to set up routines. While they’re not the exact same, and they have different development, they’re close so it’s easier to set up timelines and to work with their schedules and routines because they’re close and similar.

Aisha: Do you feel like they support each other? Like if you start doing something, dressing or whatever.

Amorette: Oh yeah. Just this morning V was having difficulty taking off her footy pjs and E goes over there and pulls, was pulling at it, and the other day I posted a video where they were doing Duplo blocks, I think they’re called Duplos, and E got it down first and she’s been doing it for a while and V just sits there and observes her and watches her and then she kind of, E kind of encourages her, like she’ll hand her like 2 blocks or you know like kind of do it first and just sit there and watch her try to do it. So there’s definitely a support system and help, they help each other.

Ana- Kay: That actually reminded me of something. You know how in Montessori, we try to show without too many words, we tend to do the tap thing. I don’t know how to describe this for the listeners but you know, you’ll tap on the shelf as a reminder for them to replace the toy they were working with, the material they were working with, I’ve noticed JuJu is doing that now with Jax. So, we were doing a popsicle posting activity, I posted that today, and Jax had an orange stick and you could see he was kind of looking like ‘Uh where’s the orange hole?’ and JuJu just went, ‘tap, tap, tap’! And I was like wait, hold on, when did you become the guide. Hahaha!

Aisha: That’s amazing! I have to say for me it’s probably the same. The bond and the support that they show each other. Recently, and after almost two months of not going to nursery because of lockdown, they’ve opened up again but because they’d only been going for a couple of weeks before, the transition has kind of been basically from scratch and they found it quite hard. But a couple of days ago when I dropped them off, one of them was getting a bit upset and they just turn around and hug each other as I leave and I kind of wanted to cry and my heart was bursting! But I was so happy for them and they really find each other when they’re emotional. Sometimes it’s even if they’re upset with me! If I’ve set a limit or if I’ve prevented them from doing something they seek each other out and they comfort each other. They’ll go to each other, so yeah, that is amazing.

Amorette: Do you find that it’s hard to like, because one thing I’ve started noticing is, it’s hard to get them to do things separately sometimes. Not working on things separately but going to like, when E has to go somewhere, or my husband’s like ‘I’ll take E outside with me’ , V’s like ‘what the heck? I’m going too!’ And then they’re sister’s coming. Like it’s a package deal, we all do the same thing. Like do you find it hard to do one on one time with them at times? 

Aisha: Yeah, I think for mine definitely. They will sometimes play separately, like sometimes I’ll notice one of them is inside and one of them is out in the garden or upstairs. And it might last for 4 or 5 minutes and then they realise and they’re like ‘Oh! I’ve been playing by myself for too long. I need to go and find out what the other one is doing.’ So I have to admit that over the last year, and I also have an older daughter who is 4, and with nurseries being closed and with lockdown s and everything we haven’t’ really been able to do very much one on one time with any of them but sometimes…it usually happened when one of them would nap longer, then I would get that time with the other twin to sit down and do some calm activities with them. But even I sometimes found it a bit strange, like hey, there’s nobody interrupting us, there’s nobody helping. And I think as much as they might sometimes seek out some separation, I think they seek out each other more than that I think that they, I feel like they seek that connection more. 

Ana-Kay: Yeah, I totally agree. Especially the nap time. That’s kind of the only time we have one on one. If one should take a shorter nap, or skip the nap completely. Because otherwise when we try it just doesn’t work, it has never worked. Actually there was one moment when we had to take Jax to the doctor and I was like well what’s the point in bringing them both. I’ll stay with JuJu and Daddy will take Jax. He was just not understanding why Jax was going in the car, why the car was starting, he saw the garage door close and you could just see on his face like, something’s going wrong. And I actually had to do a video call because the whole time he was just moping around and I was like, ;Dude they’re coming back!’ But yeah…

Amorette: You took my other half! 

Ana-Kay: Yeah, you took my other half. And I think especially because he saw him leaving with his father he was like, ‘hey what’s going on?’

Amorette: Have you found your twin’s personalities to be very similar or different?

Aisha: That is actually a very hard question and I have been asked that quite a lot and I think most often people would say ‘oh is one more dominant or is one more forceful in character?’ And I was honestly always quite hesitant to answer because I didn’t want to place labels on them like oh this one’s really bossy or this one’s always the follower etc. And especially to other people because I didn’t want them to build that kind of image. So I was always really cautious in answering questions like that. But in terms on personalities, yes they definitely have very different personalities. They do a lot of the same things because they copy each other a lot and if they see one of them doing something then the other one wants to do the same. But they definitely have different interests and like different things and will sort of gravitate towards different things. And personality wise, I mean, I think all of my children are quite active and crazy and noisy anyway. But they are different and they also are similar in the way that I think every two year old is. They have moments you know, they have incredible joys and excitement for things and then they have upsets about different things.

Ana-Kay: Yeah, the same for me. Like they’re extremely different, like extremely different. They’re complete opposites. But I totally understand what you’re saying when you don’t like to label them in a certain way because you don’t want, especially in front of them, for another family member to say, ‘oh he’s the leader! Is he the big brother?’ I’m like no, there’s no big brother, no little brother, two minutes makes no difference makes no difference at all in someone’s life experience. But they are different, and I don’t mind describing them in terms of the positives, like Jax is for sure much more cautious. He thinks everything through, he always has a plan, what he does is purposeful. Whereas JuJu is ready to jump off of anything and jump into anything. At the same time he’s so living you know and very caring, always giving the hugs and the kisses. And they’re different, they’re different. But when it comes to interests they kind of tend to gravitate towards the same thing. Like if I should set up an activity for them I don’t have to worry that, oh I have to set up two different things. Once they see something new or something that I’m tinkering with, they’re like, ‘oh what’s that? Let me go see what mummy’s doing. So I don’t have to worry about that.

Amorette: So my girls are yin and yang. They’re complete opposites but at the same time they’re very similar. They both are very much go-getters and doers. One tends to kind of do more physical development first and the other tends to kind of just watch and observe and then do it. So it’s kind of interesting to see that. And when it comes to interests they definitely impact each other but they also have separate ones. E’s more into puzzles and things like that but she’s also really into rocks and V’s more into cars. But E’s into cars too now because V brings her cars so she’s like ‘I’m cool with this’. And now when we go on hikes, it used to be we needed to stop for E to find rocks and now we have to stop for both of them to find rocks and now we have to gather every one in sight! But yeah they’re very similar yet so different. 

Aisha: Yeah, I love it. To be honest I have the same sort of experience like one of my twins is very aware of everything that’s going on so you know if were moving, we’re getting dressed to go do something, if we’re cooking or whatever, he just knows what’s going on and he’ll just kind of figure it out and fit himself in whilst the other one is just in his own world and he just, he doesn’t really care, he’ll just do it in his own time!

Ana-Kay: Yeah, my boys are the exact same. I always say that nobody can force Jax to do something he doesn’t want to do. Not that we force either of them to do anything but you know you kind of hope that they’ll be into like, for example, let’s try baking something today. And you know JuJu will grab the learning tower, he’ll climb up and he’ll be ready to whisk some eggs. Whereas Jax is like ’well you know I was kind of over here doing something else.’ Ha-ha. ‘When I’m ready, when I’m ready’.

Amorette: That’s how E is too but I kind of love it because that’s kind of how I am so I love to see her so determined. It’s like ‘If I’m going to do that, I’m going to do it and you’re not, no one is going to stop me.’

Ana-Kay: Yeah, until I decide that I’m done…

Amorette: Yeah, but I kind of love it, because it’s like, as little girls are whatever, nothing’s going to stop them. You know if they’re going to be president or whatever…you know it’s like, ‘ok, you do you…it’s like, as long as you’re not hurting yourself or someone else…you do you!

Ana-Kay: Yeah, love it!. I would love to hear from you guys, what do you do when one twin is having a difficult time and the other one also wants your attention?

Aisha: I have to say that probably is one of the biggest challenges. If we were to talk about challenges in having twins or multiples, I think this would be pretty much at the top. When both children have a need for you, your attention, or some kind of comfort from you and there’s only one of you and you only have two arms and the mum guilt creeps in big time in moments like that because you know that you’re trying to balance – who needs me more right this second? Who can potentially wait? And it’s a really hard decision to make because you always feel like you’re letting one of them down. But after listening to lots of podcasts and reading Janet Lansbury and lots of people like that, they mostly talk about this situation in terms of siblings but it’s applicable. You know let’s say one of them is having a really hard time about something and acknowledge the feeling of the other one – I know you want to me to come and have a look at that, I’ll be with you soon. I know it’s difficult to wait but I’m helping you’re brother right now – You’re kind of splitting your attention anyway. But if one of them is having a difficult emotional time I feel like I need to be more present with that person or with that child at the moment, I had a situation the other day actually that was all three and it was during breakfast. I honestly, I just stood there for a few minutes just trying to figure out – what am I supposed to do? How am I supposed to handle this situation? And every single child is screaming, they’re all upset, incredibly upset, and if I sit down and they all start trying to climb on top of me and they push each other off. So that wasn’t working and I was just like completely – what am I supposed to do? And I decided to just go one by one. So, I picked one of them up – and I didn’t sit down because then the others would just start climbing up – and I picked on of them up, held him, comforted him and I tried to soothe him as much as I could and when he calmed down a little bit I asked him was he ready to sit down and eat breakfast and he was. So, I put him in his chair and I picked up the next one and did the same and it was a little bit stressful because all the time that I was comforting the other two were still crying. So one by one by one I managed to get them all calm and I think I’m going to sue that strategy again. It was like a total spur of the moment…yeah and probably it won’t work the next time but that one time it did and I’ll try it again.

Amorette: So I kind of have two. So if one is having a difficult time and the other one just wants to, for example read a book or play, we do a thing where if I’m talking with one and the other one wants attention, the other one will touch my shoulder or my leg, I then place my hand over their hand so then they know that I’m acknowledging them. So they know that Mummy knows that you need her but I’m helping your sister right now. So then no words have to be spoken, it’s a ‘I know you something’ kind of a thing. But if it’s something where both are having emotions, really strong emotions, we have something where…really early on, and I started doing this because I did it with my nephew ten years ago and it worked really well, we have mediation tracers and a calming area. So we both are having really strong emotions we remove ourselves from whatever environment we’re in and we go into the separate area that’s kind of our calm area and we just sit there and we breathe. Because sometimes you just have to cry and let it out before you cans tart resolving any situation or whatever. Once it gets to a point that we can talk, we might do mediation tracers for a bit longer. Because you know when they have that like, ‘Huh, huh, huh’ -sobbing- and you want to wait until that’s completely resolved and you can communicate. And then you can start you know – what happened? How are you feeling? – start going through it. And then it’s usually like, ‘Sissy..da di da.’ And then you can help put words to it, you can describe it – ok so sissy grabbed the toy and it accidentally hit your head, oh that hurt – then we can start to work through emotions.

Those are kind of the two things. But also I make it a point to try to spend 10-15 minutes with each of them a day, just us. So even if it’s in the other room, just watching the play blocks, you know even if it’s just that, that’s kind of helped a great deal knowing that there’s two of you and you still have Mum’s undivided attention at certain points that kind of helps when you know we do the touching the shoulder, I think they know over time that it’s a pattern so they know.

Aisha: They know that they’ll be responded to.

Amorette: Yeah. So what about you Ana-Kay?

Ana-Kay: I am in the very same boat as Aisha. There are times when I have no idea what is going to be the best strategy because every situation is different. We do have a calming are but there are times when I feel like we can’t make it do the calming area depending on where the situation occurred and they both need me. I also have heard of the waiting hand but I haven’t figured out how to teach them just yet so would love those tips Amorette!

Yeah, I think it depends on the situation. If neither of them are in extreme danger, I just have to talk and through and calm them down. And when they have calmed down, I talk them through what happened. You know, and yeah, I do have to choose one depending on what happened. For example, there was a time when, this was an accident really, some water spilled on the floor and JuJu came running inside. And of course he ran right onto it and he slipped and fell and started crying. What do you think happened next? Of course, Jax came running. But JuJu is one the floor crying. I had to choose. Do I stop Jax from falling into this water or do I tend to JuJu? And it was really hard because he just fell, you know? But Jax is about to fall too so I had to swipe him up really quickly, put him out of the way and then tend to JuJu. And explain to him – I’m so sorry, I know you fell but I just had to grab Jax real quickly but I’m here now. And of course we sat there and we hugged for such a long time. And we cleaned the water up together. So it depends on the situation. Everything is different but no matter what it is, Amorette already said and you did Aisha, you know being there for them one on one and talking to them, and explaining what happened, in the end kind of helps the situation. 

Aisha: Yeah it is like a balance of safety…who is in more danger. And there might be situations…I had a situation recently and I know that they’re almost two and a half but it’s only recently that I’ve stopped taking the pushchair and felt a bit braver walking around with them. So I decided to take them to the shop. And we needed to buy some nappies and wipes so I decided that was the only thing we would get because I knew we would have to get in and out of the shop pretty quickly. They each carried a pack and we put it on the till and as I was paring one of them ran back into the shop and then one of them ran towards the door. Like, ok, so, who do I follow?! One of them is going out…so I grabbed that one. Sometimes it just does have to be a – phew – quick swipe up and back into the store to get the other one and hope that he hasn’t knocked anything off that shelves and luckily he didn’t! I think it’s those like split second decisions sometimes that you just have to rely on instinct I suppose. 

Aisha: Ok, so next question that I’ve got for you ladies is about resources. Do you double up on the amount of resources that you have? So let’s say for one child you might have a certain number of toys or resources out, do you have double the amount or 50%? Or are there any items you just have to have two of?

Amorette: It’s funny because when I read this question I was like I’m actually working on a blog post about this. We have obviously two of the necessary items like high chair, car seats, where they need to have it at the same time due to safety – beds, things like that! And two things when it comes to comfort like they each have their own dolly, they each have their own blanky but other than that, similar to a Montessori classroom, we try to keep one. Like I don’t have two of the exact same activity out. Like there might be two different separate ones. Like if we’re doing toothpick posting, I don’t have two of them. There’s one and it’s to help teach them patience so we wait. And I recently shared that, being that we are a home though, there are things that we started to have double of, like the wavy chopper, because it’s more important that as a family we are there cooking together than it is that we’re being patient and waiting because if my husband and I are cooking together we have enough knives that we can cook side by side and that’s more important, it’s building something more. But for the most part no, we have one.

Ana-Kay: Yeah, we actually do it very similarly. When it comes to shelf work, only one of each item because we are trying to encourage them to take turns. And yeah it actually can lead to some frustration sometimes but it’s all part of the learning process. In the real world there aren’t two of everything so it’s something we decided to do at our home. When it comes to practical life tools though, we do have two. So we have two pitchers, two spoons for them, two rolling pins…we have two of everything in that sense so that they can each help, like you were saying Amorette, work side by side in the kitchen. Also some gross motor stuff. We have two bikes, two huge balls, two of most of our outdoor activities because that is something to avoid upset, ha-ha. And also I just feel like if my husband is playing with them, because that is something that involves the whole family, if we go on a walk or a bike ride together they obviously need their own, if they’re playing outside or kicking/ throwing balls, my husband might be with one while I’m with the other. So we do have two of those things and obviously the necessary stuff like the car seats and so on like Amorette said. 

Aisha: I’m not going to repeat it because it’s exactly the same, ha-ha! All the kitchen items and tools are doubled. But I kind of have a follow up question, because it’s something that I sometimes actually struggle with when one of them is working on an activity, say gets a puzzle out, and then the other one joins in. And I know that you Amorette do the work mats, where they have a clear boundary and if somebody is working on a work mat, they want to work alone, which I haven’t introduced yet, it’s something I’ve planned to for a while but haven’t got round to it. But there are two situations, sometimes say one of them is doing a puzzle and then the other one comes and joins and is disruptive, trying to mess it up then I try to step in and set that limit that he’s working on this. But if they’re not being destructive and they’re doing the puzzle together, is it something that you would stop or is something that you would let play out?

Amorette: Unless it’s something that they’re, for instance, E’s really into pink tower right now but she pretty much has part of it down, but if V comes and E’s ok with it, and it’s not something that she’s actively trying to do, I’m ok with it. Talking about the mats and introducing them, it was actually the very first blog post I posted and shared because I noticed E was starting to…V already had the permanence box thing down, like she knew it, she had it down and mastered. E was just getting to the point where she had the ball, was kind of figuring it out. V would just come over and kind of do it. And it was taking it away, E didn’t have the opportunity to try to figure it out. And that’s when you know – E’s on the mat so let’s go over here and find some other work for you. It’s those situations but if it’s like they’re putting something together and the other one it like, yeah come join me then that’s totally different than, ‘I’m actively trying to figure this out, I might be getting frustrated, I’m working through some frustration.’ Then I try to give them the space that they can have that because that’s what the boundary is for. And I’m trying to get them to ask. They’re getting to that point where they can start to communicate better. I’m trying to get them to ask – E can I do to? You know, asking if they can join. That’s starting to go really well too. What about you? Because I know that, Ana-Kay, if I remember correctly you’re also doing a mat?

Ana-Kay: We actually just started; we started last month. And Aisha if it’s something you’re thinking about doing, I absolutely recommend it. It has made such a difference. At first I was kind of caught up worrying about the little things, like how are they going to know they need to roll this mat out and work on it? But they’re picking up on it/ I mean like children do, they are amazing, they understand things so much quicker than we expect. It only took me actually having to lay the mat out for them the night before and model putting the material on the mat for them to realise after a while, ok this is where the mats are kept, let me pick it up and roll it out on my own. And now when it comes to them working together on the mat, I never stop it. It’s such a beautiful thing! I love when I see them happily working together. You know I think like that’s the goal! To know that they can happily work alone and happily work together. So back to the only having one thing on the shelves, for example, the three part puzzles. We have some with animals. I do put three of them out at a time, to make it more challenging, in one basket. So for example you’ll have a zebra, lion or whatever. So technically, one activity they could be doing together, if you understand what I’m saying. One could be doing the lion, one could be doing the zebra. So that’s what’s been happening a lot. I’ve seen those activities where they work side by side and everybody’s happy with it. I’ve also seen where they’re not happy with it. So I do have to step in at that point and say – hey let’s put it back and try to find something else to work on. So that’s kind of when I decide to work with the twin that wanted to interrupt the other. So I’ll take his hand we’ll go to the shelf, find something else. And I’ll it with him and probably involve myself more usual. Just to kind of get him going on this other activity, as opposed to interrupting the other one. Try the mat, it’s really cool. It’s cool to see how they understand this is my space.

Aisha: I actually have mats I’ve got three. I just have to set them up and model.

Amorette: So, I’ll ask the next one. How do you model something to two toddlers at the same time? Ana-Kay?

Ana-Kay: Honestly, it rarely happens. It rarely occurs where they’re together and wanting to see the same activity at the same time. What I’ve done it, I’ll put it on the shelf if it’s something new and I’ll wait for one of them choose it. And then I’ll model that activity to that particular twin. Now in the rare case where they both see it and they both want to work on it at the same time, I just go ahead and model it exactly as I would to one. And generally one doesn’t seem to be paying attention at all, he’s probably trying to get his hand in there and I just continue and lo and behold somehow he picks it up. It sounds too simple to be true but I haven’t done anything more extravagant than that. Just work on the hopes that they’re absorbing what I’m doing and somehow it does happen. If it’s something more elaborate like when we first did the flower arranging, you know they see they pitchers of water, they really want to get pouring because pouring is something they’ve done separately but now there are more parts to the activity you know, but ‘I know a part’ – they just want to jump in and they want to just go ahead and do it. Same thing, I just try my best to model the activity and hope that they’re picking it up. And somehow they do. One always tends to pay attention more than the other, and then they learn from each other. So it has never really been a situation where I’ve been like – aw that twin didn’t see what I was doing and now I have to do it again! Ha-ha, that’s never actually happened me so far. But anything is possible ha-ha.

Aisha: Watching each other I think is huge. And my twins absorb what their older sister does. They just absorb everything that she does. And there have been some toys or resources that I’ve put out that I haven’t even showed them how to use them because they’ve just watched their sister playing with them. And then they either copy her or they join her and use her as a guide instead of me. But to be honest I actually don’t model that much, ha-ha. If it’s something very specific, like a Montessori material (I don’t have that many but like the knob cylinders) then I will show them and maybe just like show them one or two that you have to find the right one rather than go through the whole block. Because I also see great value in allowing them and giving them the time to explore resources in their own way. What I will do is set a limit if they are misusing it or like messing it up or doing something that they shouldn’t be, then I would stop that. But if they are exploring it or playing with it, then I tend to just let them do what they want, ha-ha!

Ana-Kay: That’s so true, like they kind of can teach themselves sometimes.

Aisha: And they definitely observe each other as well. There’s countless times when I’ve noticed one child working on something and the other one just watching, or sometimes they might watch each other, sometimes their older sister. And they just pick it up. They really do. 

Amorette: We take the Montessori approach so I only model to them both if they both are interested. So, there’s been many times one is only interested and the other learns from observing the one I originally modelled for. But when it comes to traditional Montessori materials, because you know we have the upstairs and downstairs is our homeschool area where I keep the traditional Montessori materials, and we do this because upstairs I can’t always be mindful and they might mix materials and things might turn into other things, with traditional Montessori materials it’s meant to be used for, like the pink blocks aren’t meant to be a seat, ha-ha, they’re meant to be used for – there’s a purpose. So, when it’s something like that, I always bring it out and I actually always complete it because it’s important that they see from beginning to end and that I’m completing it. Because I feel like if I don’t do that, it’s saying like, you can stop whenever. So it’s important to complete the whole thing and then also putting it back. It’s like this is how we take it.

Aisha: So they see the whole process…

Amorette: Yep, so they see the whole step by step and then put it back. But like you guys, if it’s upstairs stuff, like blocks, I just put it out and see what they do. That’s part of the fun, figuring it out for themselves and sometimes they come up with something unique – I didn’t think about doing it that way, that’s kind of cool! That’s part of their creativity.

One of the things that’s different from traditional, some other philosophies, is that we’re really following them and seeing what they do and supporting their uniqueness and what they come up with. So it’s kind of…it’s interesting. 

Amorette: I was just going to ask you guys – how do you deal with times when they might copy each other’s undesirable actions?

Ana-Kay: Oh, you mean every day? Ha-ha.

Amorette: Ha-ha. Or like throwing, things like that.

Ana-Kay: Aisha, you can go first! Ha-ha.

Aisha: Ok, ha-ha, yeah so that’s always an interesting situation because there are definitely times and it’s almost like that sort of behaviour it a magnet and when one twin sees the other doing something they’re like ‘Ok, let’s just make this interesting and join in the fun!’.  And I guess on my part as the parent being just quick, being quick to stop it. And right now actually, they both throw books. They go up to the bookshelf. And by the time I notice one of them doing it, by the time I get there the other one is already there and probably like 50-60%of the books are on the floor. And it does actually make me really upset because I hate seeing books being destroyed. But yeah, you just have to get in there really quickly and I think it is the same as you would with one child. So let’s say he’s holding a book and about to throw it, I’ll gently hold his hand and set a limit and say ‘I won’t let you throw books, books need to stay in the basket’ or ‘Books are for reading. And I’ll stop one, and if I can the other one. Sometimes it’s like one child, one hand, maybe if it’s enough to just block. So yeah, if I can I block one with one had, block the other with the other hand. Explain to them, set the limit. And then I ask them to join me in picking them up and putting them back. And sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t. But I still feel like I want to model putting the books back. And I have noticed actually that sometimes they do it when they’re looking for a book. And it starts off that way, one of them is looking for a book and he just discards the one that he doesn’t want. And the other one sees that and thinks ‘ok, this is what we’re doing’ and joins in with that. And I have also modelled (what we were just talking about) – oh you’re looking for this book. Ok if you can’t see it, this is what you can do, you can put it down on the tables or you can put it next to you on the floor. You don’t have to just throw them. Ha-ha.

A lot of modelling and explaining and setting limits. And to be honest maybe the difference between one and two is more mess; they can make more mess than one child could. But the attitude and approach that I come to them with is the same that you would do with one child. You stop the behaviour, explain, set the limit, and then model the behaviour that you want. How about you Ana-Kay?

Ana-Kay: Well, exactly that. Also kind of anticipating that it’s going to happen. Because after a while of observing and realising that hey…because in my situation it’s kind of one that does it more than the other. Like, one that starts it and then the other follows, most often. So I can kind of tell when it’s about to happen. It’s almost always for a reason. Like, are the hungry? Are they bored? Did I spend a lot of time doing some work this morning instead of sitting with them? There’s almost always a reason. And so I always try to get in ahead of it. So, it it’s a case where they’re throwing books (they do that as well), model just like you said. You know, put them back. Remind them we don’t throw our books, books are for reading, would you like to read this book? If not then we put them back, here’s a basket of balls. Which I did learn from Nicole Kavanaugh on social media, you know I learn a lot from her! I have a basket of balls available all the time for them to throw. 

Aisha: Yeah, that is a great idea. But we can only have balls upstairs because any balls downstairs the dogs just get them! But I do use that as a redirection sometimes as well. If you want to throw something, let’s go outside and throw some balls for the dogs.

Ana-Kay: When it comes to climbing, again I redirect. Because we have a table in their play area and it’s for working obviously but there’s sometimes when they climb on it so I remind them – hey, we have the Pikler triangle or let’s go outside and let’s climb on the wall. Or anything else, you know, just not the table. It’s a lot of anticipation, modelling, redirecting and sometimes it just happens and you’re just going to have to keep reminding them.

Amorette: So, my thing is that, it’s just actions. They don’t know it’s undesirable necessarily, they’re at a stage where they’re learning what can I do, what can I not do – ‘Is this ok? Is this not ok?’ They’re just figuring out their place in the world and learning boundaries are. And then there’s also pushing boundaries, like ‘Am I allowed to do this? How about if I do it this way? Oh, am I allowed to do it this way?’ So, it’s more that it’s undesirable to me, not undesirable to them. So, we also do the redirecting. Right now, one of the big things is, climbing our dining room table. And redirecting to another but when we were first redirecting to the Pikler, it wasn’t challenging enough. It was me more observing – so I’d redirect, and they’d still go back to the dining room table. SO, it’s like ok, you’re not being challenged enough, this needs to become more challenging. So, we ended up getting their birthday gift early, which is a play set, so now they have more of a challenge because this is new, this is different, they can’t do it, you know? At this point I feel like they could be ready for Mount Everest! Ha-ha. 

Ana-Kay: I always say my boys are training for America Ninja Warrior, ha-ha. 

Amorette: Yeah, cause that’s what it always feels like. So, I guess, I see it as they’re just copying each other and doing the actions and learning what they’re able to do and not able to do. And the redirecting because there’s a reason behind it. And like you said about, was I doing something, or we find that, I guess you could say one of them was acting out but to me it’s just another, it’s how they’re able to communicate that they need some love.

Aisha: It’s just their expression isn’t it. 

Amorette: Yup, so like V is just very comfortable, like she’ll just come up and hug you. She’ll just plop, like you can be just sitting there, and she’ll just plop in your lap, you know stick her thumb in your mouth like ‘cuddle me, I need a cuddle.’ And it took E a bit of time to realise how to communicate the exact same thing. It took her a second. So, to me I just view it as a different way to communicate what they need. Or just kind of learning and pushing. And they also don’t have impulse control. Like I don’t have impulse control so, ha-ha. I mean they’re, you know, as toddlers still kind of learning, some things seem kind of cool. It’s like my cat, if there’s a thing there, I have to push it over. It’s the same thing with a toddler, I have to posh it. There’s chocolate there, I have to eat it! It’s just…there’s no…it comes with time and with age. So, it’s just…oh another thing, we don’t use negative. So, we don’t do ‘We don’t climb the table.’ It’s ‘oh let’s go find something else to climb.’ So, we don’t go back on ‘we don’t do this, we don’t do that…’ because it makes it more like flashing lights! ‘Oh, we don’t climb the table…oooooh.’ –

Ana-Kay: Exactly, I’m realising this…all they hear is ‘climb the table’ and all they hear is ‘climb the table’. Ha-ha. 

Amorette: Yeah, it’s like ‘You don’t climb the table but let me show you…I can show you five different ways to climb this thing!’ So that’s another thing, we try not to use the negative because the negative amplifies it. And it’s like it’s louder and more there. So yeah.

Aisha: Ok, so obviously all of our twins are toddlers now but have all gone through having twins who were babies and infants, I would like to ask you, how did you survive that very first period? Maybe what was the hardest part and what helped you through it? 

Amorette: Routine! This was where autism really was a blessing. Because setting up routines – so I did a lot reading beforehand, like you know when you find out you’re having twins – how am I going to do this because you know, everyone goes ‘Oh, one baby is so difficult!’ I had helped raise my nephew and I knew it was difficult but it’s not impossible. So, it’s like, there’s a way, there’s got to be a way to do that. So routine and when one baby gets up, so like at night, when one baby gets up, they’re both get up. So, if you’re feeding one, you’re feeding both. If one needs changing, you just change them both. Because if you don’t do it at the same time, you’re going to be doing it in ten minutes. So, it’s just kind of syncing up and then kind of stretching things out. So, for nap times, if V started showing that she was tired, you know where they start rubbing the eye, starting but not like ‘Ok we need to go to bed’ I try to stretch it out a little bit until started showing the same kind of signs. And then we were able to sync up a really…like right now they are both down for a nap and bedtimes aren’t a problem. But another thing I read was – don’t rock them. And I felt like, I think my family thought I was the cruelest parent in the world when I was like ‘Don’t rock them, don’t rock them!’ But it’s difficult when you get one child who’s like, they need to rock to sleep and having two…it’s one of those things that’s like as they grow older am I going to be able to carry them both, am I going to be able to…so I didn’t want to start something that I wasn’t going to be able to do or that would end up difficult for them. So, we didn’t rock them. We held them and we loved them. And they were very colicky the first few months so there was a lot of holding until like four o’clock in the morning and stuff, but I just didn’t like rock them back and forth and back and forth. Yeah, and we did swaddle because they were in NICU and then they were out in the hospital and they wrapped them and when we got them home they weren’t happy unwrapped. And it’s not Montessori but, you know, they wanted it, they made it very clear that they wanted to be…

Aisha: You needed to follow their needs…

Amorette: … Mm-hmm. When they weren’t swaddled at night it was very difficult but when they were swaddled, they were really happy so we just kind of followed them with that too, until I think they were about two months old when we didn’t do it anymore. What about you Ana-Kay?

Ana-Kay: Ok, so for us…oh my goodness the infant stage! It was pretty hard. We did all the things that the books say you’re not supposed to, ha-ha. We did not have them on the same sleep schedule, we did not stick to any form of routine. We used the pacifiers; we used the swaddles…just like you say Amorette they were in the NICU and the first thing they did was pop a pacifier in their mouth and wrap them up in a swaddle so we did try to lose it but it wasn’t working. So, we kept the pacifier, we kept the swaddles for a good long time. I actually had no idea what Montessori was until they were about six months-ish, is when I started reading that’s not when we fully implemented it but that’s when I learned about it. But in the beginning, slowly we got them on the schedule, and it made such a difference. So, it would have been wise to follow the books in that sense, of keeping them on the same sleep schedule and the same feeding schedule because it was just tough. Feeding them was really hard because they also had acid reflux so had to feed every two hours, but you can’t leave them down for forty-five minutes after they feed, ha-ha, so you have to hold them up. And then by the time you put them down…

Amorette: It’s time to eat again!

Ana-Kay: …it’s time to eat again! Ha-ha. So, I was like wait…we’re not sleeping! I feel like they’re not sleeping…so we were all tired all the time. But I mean…would I do it again? Of course! I probably would follow some more advice though and stop trying to do it all on my own knowledge which really…I didn’t have any experience with babies before. They’re my first and they’re my only and you know…I was just figuring it out as I go. 

Amorette: Are they on a schedule now?

Ana-Kay: Oh definitely!

Amorette: Oh ok, I was just curious, because you said they weren’t at the beginning, so I was just kind of curious when you started to implement it…if they kind of did it or if you kind of started to implement it?

Ana-Kay: NO, I’d say around ten months is when I was kind of over it. I was like – I need to sleep, I can’t do this anymore. I can’t have one awake while the other one is sleeping. We have to get them on a schedule so it really…it’s a trying thing to get them on a schedule at that age. I would much prefer if I did it when they were younger. But we did figure it out and now like clock; at two thirty – nap, at eight thirty – sleep. And same with meals, we have it every three/ three and a half hours or so and it makes life so much easier. I don’t think I could manage to have my own life, ha-ha, if I didn’t organise theirs in a way that was predictable. Because they also like it, they like the routine. So, yeah. 

Amorette: I was going to actually ask a question really quick because you said you started implementing – Ana-Kay, you said you started implementing Montessori around six months. I started when my nephew was six months old, ten years ago, so the girls were from birth, so I told my husband ‘Boom, boom, we’re doing Montessori’ like when we first started dating. When did you start Montessori (Aisha)?

Aisha: So, I read about – like I knew about it beforehand because I used to be a teacher. So, I knew about the method and I knew about, like, the educational side of it but I didn’t really find out about Montessori as a parent until my daughter was about ten or eleven months, when I found, I think I was just looking on a Facebook group, and I found the Montessori 101 Facebook group. And it was just a whole world opened up and I was like, I didn’t realise that this could be transferred into a home environment. And of course, when you start looking into it, the philosophy about putting the child at the centre…and I was implementing – I had read a lot, before my daughter was born, I had read a lot of RIE books; Janet Lansbury and Magda Gerber stuff – so I was doing a lot of that with her from birth but a lot of the stuff that Montessori talks about, Montessori at home, is like the practical life, involving them in the home life etc. Which I wasn’t doing with her until she was about one year old. And then with the twins, again, I did a little bit from birth. So, with my daughter I didn’t really have a movement area and I didn’t use mobiles, like she would still have time on the floor, on the mat, but it wasn’t like a dedicated space whilst for the twins I was more aware and I was able to create a movement area for them so that they could play and lie there even when they were really tiny babies. I would still have a balance of sometimes I would still put them under a mobile, sometimes they would just lay there and play with their own bodies, feet, and hands etc., and give them time to do that. But, yeah, surviving infancy, routine was also quite key for us. And like you said Amorette, if they were…I think what I struggles most with was waking them up ha-ha. So, if one woke up, I just couldn’t wake the other one up ha-ha. I can’t wake a sleeping baby, you know, ha-ha. Apart from a nighttime when they had to feed. And to be honest, usually when one woke up, the other one would wake up anyway. And if they didn’t, then we just fed, like, sometimes we were able to dream feed, sometimes they woke up. But the other thing was, and this is a difference that I noticed, again I don’t know if it’s a difference in the child’s character, their personality or if it’s because it’s what we did differently. Because, you know, like with my daughter we always held her, you know she slept with us for the first months of her life and I just like, I’d hold her to sleep every single time. Whilst with the twins, because there were two of us, and often there was one of us, either me or my boyfriend looking after the, it’s not possible to physically hold them to sleep. So, they have always been falling asleep in their beds and they’ve always been so easy to put to sleep. Like you know we would put them in their beds, and they were always really comfortable. No crying, no issues, no trying to get out whilst with my daughter until she as probably about two you just couldn’t leave her in her bed, somebody had to be there with. I actually still have to hold her hand until she falls asleep, and she’s four ha-ha. Whilst the twins, you know, you can lay them in their beds, or they get in their beds now and they’re happy to calm down and lie down and they’re happy to be in their beds. So, I think that’s one thing that we did very differently and it proved to be a lot more helpful, ha-ha. 

Amorette: I was going to say it’s nice, because with two at least they have each other. The singleton, they just have themselves. So, like, you know, your daughter being in a room…I kind of don’t blame her like, I don’t want to do it by myself! But with the twins, you have two and it’s kind of like you’re not alone, you have your buddy there.

Ana-Kay: I want to make it clear though, I found out about Montessori at six months, but we implemented things slowly. I wouldn’t say it was until about fourteen months that we actually started so way into toddlerhood for us is when we really took it seriously. Well, I should say, when I really took it seriously. So just to make that clear.

Amorette: But I think it’s important like, for anybody who’s listening, that you can start it like at any time. Like it goes…I mean you can start prior to birth, you know, with reading, with implementing and respecting and starting to do things and it’s all the way up until adulthood. So even if, someone’s listening right now, and they have like a twelve-year-old, you can still start it. It’s not too late because it’s not about the wooden toys and the shelves and the pretty stuff. It’s just about respecting and following and listening and, you know, doing it. So, I’m almost glad you started a little bit later and are sharing that because it kind of makes it more real, more achievable. It’s not like ‘oh I missed my time.’ Nope, you didn’t miss your time…

Ana-Kay: Yeah, I used to think there was this magical window and I was like, well, there’s no way they’re going to be able to have that sense of order if I never, you know, tapped into it from when they were babies. But, no, not at all. 

Aisha: And children respond to it because it’s so intuitive and so natural for them to be treated that way. They will respond to it and when they’re treated that way with that respect and that trust, they live up to that. They exceed our expectations really. 

Aisha: Well, that was a great summary right there at the end so thank you for that Amorette. And thank you so much ladies from the bottom of my heart. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much for coming on and joining me here today.

Ana-Kay and Amorette: Thank you so much for having us!

Ana-Kay: Ha-ha! Thank you so much for having us, it was really fun! 

Thank you everyone for tuning in. I hope you had as much fun listening to this conversation as we had recording it. You can find both Amorette and Ana-Kay on Instagram. Amorette is @french.family.montessori and Ana-Kay is @pickneys_at_play. And as always you can find me @trustingchildren or you can send me an e-mail to aisha@tc. I will be doing a podcast Q&A live on Monday evening so if you have any questions about this episode you can hop onto Instagram and send me a DM or use the question box that I keep open all weekend.

That’s it for today, thank you for spending your time with us today. We’re all in this together and we can do this.